Thanks to Stephen who figured out that the message on the nuclear fusion brochure was written in shorthand and a huge thanks to Chad’s grandmother and Reid’s mother who translated it to:
Wernher/11:30
Bradbury/1:00
Howard/3:30 – ? May need to reschedule
Walt Disney, Wernher Von Braun, and my grandfather? Like you all, I’m assuming the Bradbury listed is Ray. Sure, that’s a group that makes sense. What am I supposed to make of this?
Still looks like scribbles to me – shorthand is super awesome. Grandpa was so multitalented.
It’s like the meeting of the minds, you should be proud that your grandfather is included in the minds of these brilliant men
I am proud of Grandpa. And thanks to all of you, getting prouder every day.
Wernher Von Braun appeared in a episode of Dsneyland entitled “Man in Space” in 1955. The episode took place in Tomorrowland. He acted in the capacity of a Technical Director to Disney in the early 50s, hoping to forward his vision of space travel, especially to Mars. See Wikipedia for more information. His entry includes a photo with Walt in front of Von Braun’s model for a passenger space ship.
Also according to Wikipedia, Ray Bradbury was a consultant for the American Pavilion at the ’46 Worlds Fair. Interestingly, he also helped to design Spaceship Earth.
This really is an amazing discovery Amelia, some of the greatest minds of the 20th century, and your gramps was one of them! you should be feel very proud of him. As far as what to make of this information i’m not sure, but i’m definitely leaning towards them havingbuilt some kind of spacecraft or maybe inter-dimensional craft. with von braun being a propusions expert and hughes as an aircraft designer, I feel that a spacecraft is the most logical answer. And if it was powered by a fusion reactor, it would have been probably the most powerful ship ever built. maybe that is what the Mark 0 is?
Let’s gather more information about these men and their involvement with Walt Disney. Here are some interesting articles: http://www.mouseplanet.com/10001/Walts_Friend_Ray_Bradbury
http://thettc.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/rocket_to_the_moon/
That is a very impressive group! Your grandfather must have really been extraordinary to work with them! It’s clear that something very interesting and important was going on behind the scenes! I can’t wait until we find out more!
They did such a great job figuring this out. I am really enjoying this adventure. Thank you for inviting us along!
A girl goes to one fun under the sun concert and the whole world explodes! I’m glad there are so many hardworking people here helping out. What a cool find! Ray Bradbury wrote some pretty amazing stuff, how cool would it be if your grandfather and he collaborated on something?!? What if Ray Bradbury got to read Orbit’s Story?
That’s what I was thinking!
Wow. What if? Hmm.
What an awesome set of meetings to go to. Your grandfather must have had quiet an experience at that worlds fair. Now the question is- What did they talk about?
Perhaps something involved with nuclear power? I really have no idea.
putting aside Carlos and bradbury for a moment, why would you put Hughes(an aircraft designer) And Von Braun (rocket scientist) together? well it seems the most logical conclusion would be to design some kind rocket propelled air or spacecraft. must have been some really intriguing stuff happening there, those are some meetings I would have LOVED to be in the room for
a ‘Rocketeer’ if you will
I did find this, apparently this rocket was first at Disneyland then moved to the worlds fair. And of course Hughes owned TWA until he was forced out in 1966
Except according to the article you found that picture, TWA had dropped sponsorship of the attraction/rocket in 1961. At the time of the fair, the attraction was sponsored by Douglas Aircraft and the rocket was still in Disneyland. I can find no indication that it was moved to the World’s Fair.
Well, I posted yesterday that there’s definitely a connection to “Spaceship Earth”, be it the ride, the thought of “Spaceships”, or the thought of Time, and added together with the clues of “Orbit”, like the planet, and all of the science-y stuff Wallace seems to have on his site, there are definite connections to be made in the Science/EPCOT City/Energy field.
On a not-too-unrelated note, Amelia, where did you get your love of the sciences? Did your grandfather know that you were interested in Biology? And if so, did he encourage it? You never know, things have a very funny way of working out, especially in the ways that we least expect them!
The funny thing is I think I got my interest in science from my mom. She’s a nurse. Every night as a kid she would sit down with me and help with homework. And her face lit it up whenever it came to science.
My love of storytelling, though, comes from Grandpa. He talked about a lot of science-y stuff in his stories, but I always saw it as make-believe.
I guess now you are seeing that it might not have been all make believe
About Spaceship Earth– heres a thought; the ride spaceship earth as we all know, is housed inside the iconic geodesic dome of EPCOT. The *term* spaceship earth derives from a concept invented by Buckminster Fuller– inventor of the geodesic dome! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller
Heres why I think this is relevant:
the concept of Spaceship Earth is that we are on a ship sailing through space, and we have been given provisions for our journey– in other words, a concern for the sustainability of our planet’s resources. Thats what EPCOT was all about– a prototype of the future in which we have found a sustainable lifestyle is it not??
The brochure on fusion– the fact that a fusion demonstration is part of the key to unlocking all of this makes me feel that these men were onto something way beyond their time- fusion being the theoretically sustainable power source of the future.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceship_Earth
everything Buckminster did had to do with sustainability, he became obsessed with efficiency. Bradbury thought of disney as an innovator of the future as well, thought that if we put our faith in him he would lead us to the best future because he cared about the children.
Von Braun’s interest in disney was similar- his involvment in the television series was a way to promote his ideas to the public- and to the government, and he had hoped that disney would take more of an interest, but he didnt.
OK thats Werner, Bradbury…what about Howard? this is where buckminster helps us:
There are no references to Bucky, *yet* but heres an interesting fact– Thomas C Howard was the lead DESIGNER ARCHITECT and ENGINEER for both of Bucky’s companies- in other words– he engineered the geodesic dome of Fullers invention!! So he could be the other futurist visionary.
Nevertheless, EPCOT is where we should look, and the key is sustainable technology for the future. Thats what they were after. They must have found something.
This question still seems to be up in the air! And it might be what we need to move forward…
Amelia, we’ve got to know if there is anything you have found that sheds light on who this “Howard” is and can he in fact be the Thomas Howard that Ariel and others have mentioned? Or maybe what does your gut tell you? Do you think we are in the right direction?
Some great stuff on the Origins of EPCOT and Bradbury: http://progresscityusa.com/2010/04/20/epcot-origins-1977-master-plan-5/
They are separate meetings, instead of being all at once, so I don’t think it was a brainstorm session. Perhaps they were recruiting more people to the project?? though that seems to be a bit late in the game. Perhaps these meetings were for private demonstrations of the project?
yeah you seem to be right, it doesn’t look like it was on display at the worlds fair. however, this article: http://www.yesterland.com/moonliners.html does suggest a level of collaboration on the part of Disney and Hughes who both commisioned them (one for Disney as an attraction, and one by Hughes to go on the roof of the TWA headquarters) and also John Hench who designed it reportedly with the input of Von Braun
The plot thickens! I feel like we have several avenues of information with little “connective tissue” between them. However, I think they are starting to slowly be filled in. Knowing who the key figures are during this time will help get to the bottom of this “Special Project.” Very intriguing.
I received a response from @DCartography in regards to whether he is left-handed like Leonardo DaVinci? He said: I’m not left-handed, but I do dream of machines of the future like Leonardo. Very interesting.
If he’s not left handed, then why is he drawing with his left hand in this picture? Should we ask him about this?
http://disneycartography.com/meet-wallace
I have asked him. No response yet. BUt I asked him if he had drawn any future machines and if he had any examples. He replied: Not yet, but perhaps tomorrow! You never know when inspiration may strike! Maybe we will get another clue soon!
This whole thing is really amazing Amelia!
I’ll say.
Just received this from Mr. Lott thought I would throw it out there for everyone!
Dear Morgan,
I’m glad you asked. Working with Mr. Disney was an incredible experience. He liked to say, “It’s kind of fun to do the impossible,” but never talked about how hard it was. We worked a lot of long hours trying to get the World’s Fair projects done on time. There was lots of going on. Lots of secret tours and top, top secret stuff. Stuff they wouldn’t even let the public see. Just a few select folks. They were building stuff I know wasn’t finished on the blueprints. And there were tons of change orders in the final days. But as hard as it was, the World’s Fair was an incredible experience. I was just glad when it opened.
Yours truly,
Michael T. Lott
I got the same response today.
When imagination and computers and Sciences combine, They become a Great reality. Amelia Since your Grandfather wrote Orbit’s Story (and it also being Science Fiction) maybe there was something in that story that sparked the minds of these great people to meet in one room to discuss about making that one item or area a reality.
A quick question though, why would all these people be meeting at Different times?
On NYWF64 posted a thank you on the SKF pavilion page to a Barry Howard. In the description it said that he also worked on a multi video for United Technologies that was used at EPCOT. It did not say what that video was though.
Interesting idea Marianne! Perhaps the Howard here isn’t actually Howard Hughs like we’ve been thinking! I’ll have to look into Barry Howard!
I actually had that thought earlier today. Everyone jumped right onto that, but unless alternate history is majorly extensive here, Hughes didn’t have much to do with THIS World’s fair.
Maybe Amelia isn’t so sure about which Howard too:
Walt Disney, Wernher Von Braun, and my grandfather? Like you all, I’m assuming the Bradbury listed is Ray. Sure, that’s a group that makes sense. What am I supposed to make of this?
With great respect I have to disagree with the Barry Howard reference. He worked on the Living Seas Pavilion film. I think we should ole the Howard Hughes path considering the dates involved and the technology. Sorry.
That was “follow”. Ipad typing….:-)
I would agree with Jennifer, especially since the Lott ci struction conferece call line stated a meeting with hughes and this say howard!
I guess I should ignore my thoughts and keep digging then. On with Howard Hughes!
The D23 website confirms Wallace’s appearance in the Collectors Forum.
“Disney Cartography
The artist and Disney historian, Wallace, is a fan of all things Imagineering. He’ll be showcasing his art inspired by the past, future, and what could have been at Disneyland.”
Another “Howard” theory, Thomas C. Howard, nuclear engineer and designer of geodesic domes:
Per Wikipedia:
“The dome was introduced to a wider audience as a pavilion for the 1964 World’s Fair in New York City designed by Thomas C. Howard of Synergetics, Inc. This dome is now used as an aviary by the Queens Zoo in Flushing Meadows Corona Park after it was redesigned by TC Howard of Synergetics, Inc.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic_dome
More interesting info at the link below:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/geodesichelp/ctWyVQMH4ao/NjX1OH6Lb7QJ
This makes sense! While Hughes is still possible, Thomas Howard has a much more concrete connection to the fair and to EPCOT. Bradbury has already been linked to spaceship earth which is a very large geodesic dome, and von Braun’s work on spaceships for Disney could tie all three to similar projects.
AH just saw you said this too– i think you’re right Thomas Howard was an engineer– these all seem to be people who have grand IDEAS. Hughes had ideas too but he was more pragmatic in his interests. Furthermore TC howard connects us to EPCOT which is where this seems to be going. and the concept of Spaceship Earth– Buckminster Fuller.
I was skeptical that it was Howard Hughes but had difficulty finding another viable “Howard” connection. Perhaps the symbol that kept popping up was TC and not TU…
i was actually thinking it could even be “HU” because honestly if you flip that symbol upside-down, its petty much exactly how i do my initials, “AH” with the two letters combined
I noticed that the times on the written note on the brochure are in equal time increments of 1hr an 30 minutes. This seems like some sort of tour that has been given a set time. I’m not completely sure of how correct this could be, but after reading the most recent email from Mr. Lott I am slightly more sure of this.
His email states:
“Lots of secret tours and top, top secret stuff. Stuff they wouldn’t even let the public see. Just a few select folks. ” (Thanks Morgan Colleen for posting this)
Not sure how much this will help but its just a theory
I’m pretty certain they were showing off some sort of work with many of these folks and either getting input or interest from them on it. From the need of secrecy, each was most likely only allowed some amount of time or even to see specific things. Lott does mention in some emails they changed plans and redid things; I bet something might have been added or altered to IASW in order to better show off whatever in secret, or make it harder to access.
Just more conjecture, but sort of interesting … a blog post how Howard Hughes’ Aircraft Company (Hughes Toolco) may have tested a space vehicle in New Mexico in 1964:
http://ufocon.blogspot.com/2013/05/howard-hughes-and-1964-zamora-ufo.html
(keep in mind, this linked site is out of game, so let’s not bug them with in game questions!)
There are so many ideas and inspirations, and so many are firing on the same cylinders! Everyone keeps hitting on things so fast it’s hard to contribute something new or novel that someone hasn’t already hit on or conjectured! Great Work everyone!
I feel the same way haha. I try to develop on ideas when I can, but everyone is so onto of the ball.
* on top of
I agree, it seems that whenever I have a good Idea all I need to do is scroll down a couple of comments and there it is, it all goes to show that Great minds do tend to think alike
The conference call refers to “Final signal flag installation”. Does this mean that there might be multiple “signal flags”? In general, signal flags allow for communication at a distance. I understand that this code for something of a higher concept, but let’s go with the general meaning of signal flags. There has been talk that maybe the secret project was a transportation device of some sort (being tested and shown in the back area of IASW, where the noise was coming from). Maybe the signal flags (plural) come in to play with the destinations they are demonstrating, or other?
Also got me thinking about Wallace’s IASW artwork, with the 5 satellites and the 2 kids communicating, and the imagery of the boat going into the tunnel … all very intriguing.
I agree, were cell Phones even that Popular less alone well known at that time? That struck me a bit off there but then again it could be something Wallace put in to show that its a small world after all
LOL – cell phones were a LONG way off in the 60′s. But satellites predate cell phones – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite – in fact multiple orbit patterns would create a grid similar to some of the other symbols we have seen. Could the kids be holding some kind of control devices – maybe signifying some type of controller built into IASW or the tower of the four winds? I still stand by my previous comment that it could be significant in some way….
there was no such thing at the time– I had thought that it was just because the artwork itself is modern- not meant to necessarily be thought of as a representation of 1964. but perhaps thats not it at all. Satellites have an orbit– maybe it is a clue after all.
I’ve tried tracing the lines connecting the kids and satellites – it goes from the girl in the orange dress to the blue satellite to the orange satellite to the grey satellite to the red satellite to the yellow satellite to the boy in the kilt (or it could be the other direction on the same route) – the symbol made by the lines doesn’t really look like anything to me, and the map on the globe is too abstract for it to signify actual locations…but does the order mean anything?
more interesting to me is the text on these posters, and Wallace’s comments next to them. For example, “three bells start our revolution” is suspect to me. also the phrase “to those just joining us” etc. I think there is a lot of symbolism that hasnt been unlocked in these posters yet.
Good point on the poster text – those phrases don’t really seem to correspond with the images they’re on. I’ve only been to Disneyland a couple times, most recently 15+ years ago, but I seem to recall that you see the primeval world from the train? I know on the WDW railroad, the narration says “to those just joining us, welcome” after each stop – is the primeval world right after a stop? Maybe that is somehow significant? On the Carousel of Progress poster, I wonder if the “revolution” is the revolving of the theater – I have the set of CDs from its soundtrack at home – for some reason I feel like the GE jingle at the beginning had chimes, but I will have to listen tonight and see if I am remembering correctly. That also must be significant!
Grand Canyon and Primeval World are just after the Tomorrowland station.
“To those just joining us, Welcome aboard!
[...] Quiet now as we travel back in time, back to the fantastic Primeval World, Land of the Dinosaurs.”
http://www.reocities.com/Hollywood/Set/3799/script7.html
There are four chimes at the very end of the instrumental intro of There’s A Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94OgKuuEYh4
This may be a little out there, but because it has to do with communication and broadcasting to the world, I was thinking of the three NBC chimes…
It wouldn’t be totally weird Stephen. Back in the 80′s Walt Disney productions was airing a TV show on NBC.
so maybe this is an indication to listen to the narration of carousel of progress. let us know, Megan, if you hear anything on the CD’s. The revolution has a double meaning because the subject we are investigating is the revolutionizing of modern civilization/ society. changing the way we live together on this “spaceship earth” however the other meaning i think like you’re saying, is literal- the revolving carousel, or even the railroad, the people mover revolves, in a way…What about the Astro Orbiter? that may be a non starter… but is there some use in looking into that ride as well?
I don’t know how helpful this is but I found this to be interesting when I read Eric’s post about the satellites in IASW artwork I started researching Disney and satellites and came across this website http://dreamsofspace.blogspot.com/2009/08/walt-disneys-man-in-space-satellites.html
I just noticed that the figure 8, infinity symbol shows up again on the doll on the left shirt. I have asked Wallace about the connections between all of his prints. But he has not responded.
I am finding that Both WVB and Bradbury both worked with Ward Kimball. Need to do more research on the ’64 worlds fair. Seems Bradbury was there but wasn’t “working”.
Does anyone but me think that it is weird that the letter that came from ford to Mr. Lott was originally posted by A “Howard” before we even knew that a heard was involved? http://storyorbit.fans/michael-whos-michael#comment-316
AHA! You have hit upon a clue! And it also seems like Amelia hasn’t heard of a Howard, either, though she knows of Wernher Von Braun and Ray Bradbury. Perhaps Howard was so secret even she didn’t hear about him.
Amelia, I think this is the time to begin telling your Mom about this… She’d definitely know if these were household names when she was a kid, and she might have a clue on who Howard is. Maybe you could begin conversation with asking about who Grandpa’s friends were, and then break the news as you see fit?
That is an interesting theory… But if the poster “Howard” was really the same Howard in question that Carlos met up with, wouldn’t he post something more personal? If he was directly involved, he would likely know more and post something more informational. The Howard who posted here posted something he said he found in a museum… That’s not personal at all.
I don’t know. I still think your theory is very interesting, and it would make an excellent twist! But it seems a little unlikely…
it just seems wierd to me that this “Howard” only posts one time, and that one time he posts something that noone else had access too. I don’t know if anyone ever proved its validity but it just seemed wierd to me.
He actually posted twice, he later replied to his post saying he found the letter in a Ford museum years before, but regardless, the letter has now disappeared from the comments, so I think we can @ssume it was a false lead.
I believe it’s a fake. See a blank version of the letterhead here: http://johnwphillips.com/post/586611087/ford
Someone just added the text.
Ford had moved out of the Mack Ave factory just shy of 60 years prior to when that letter was dated.
Does anyone have any theories on Carlos’ “special connection” with the 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea movie?
Amelia, confirmed to me that her Grandfather like Jules Verne stories, but other than that I don’t think that there is anything else there… YET
Well, I believe the squid was an early audio-animatronic – since that technology was also used in the worlds fair attractions, maybe it’s related to what he was working on?
good point, you might be right!
20K also probably in production when Carlos visited the Disney studios the first time.
An interesting read… Ray Bradbury discussing Walt, the ’64 World’s Fair and Audio-animatronics (specifically Lincoln).
http://holidaymag.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/the-machine-tooled-happyland-by-ray-bradbury-october-1965/
great article. Sometimes even if the things we find doesn’t directly help us help Amelia, being a Disney History fan I love finding and reading stuff like this. I would have not known to even search for something like this without helping here! Thanks Amelia!
Amelia, I noticed you said your Grandpa and Mom took you to see 20,000 Leagues. Was this in the theatre, and if so was it a rerelease of the 1954 film? You look so young!
Has anyone received a record?
Not yet
Not me!
May have been mentioned already, and I missed this the first time around. From the Lott website, speaking of IASW:
“… founder Michael Lott was the first person ever to ride one of the most iconic theme park rides ever created.”
been trying to collect our “evidence” on to one page, so I started a Pinterest board for the clues we’ve found. I’ve left off some of the more circumstantial stuff for now, but if anyone wants to take a look and let me know if you think I’m missing anything… http://pinterest.com/baseballmickey/the-optimist-a-collection-of-clues/
Awesome idea man! I’m checking it out now.
Nice gallery!
I’ll check there often
amelia-
i would normally leave this on your last post but since there seems to be technical difficulties in the blogosphere when replying i thought I post it here. First of all, i absolutely love your mom, reminds me so much of my own. Second, was she rockin some cheetah print cause your mom’s got some great fashion sense? And thirdly what your mom said in response to you asking if she ever read your grandfather’s stories really hit home. I always feel like we forget to make it a point to cherish the past, the idea of storytelling has become passe and i really wish when my grandparents were still alive i would have taken the time to write about their lives. As your grandfather was alive during an incredible time in history and I know he have alot of great insight to share. Well good luck on your next attempt, might I suggest sweetening her up before you ask! I hear freshly baked cookies can really make a difference
well good luck. And I too am a biology major so feel free to ask me anytime if you need help in studies.
P.S: Who was that adorable kitty?
Oh, Jennifer. *sigh* Everything you’re saying I SO needed to hear right now. Yes, as evidenced by Mom’s shirt, we are a cat family. Sofia was on the couch in the beginning with one paw out, looking for a fist bump. Nora was the one in headlights at the end, looking like, “Okay, what’s going on, and how do I get out of this?”
You’re right. You are. We totally forget to appreciate the past and the stories that came from it. I did that. I see that now. I feel it. More and more each day.
You guys could also Join Unfiction Forums. We have a page already set up and is heavily manned for these types of campaigns.
Hey I just want to tell everyone that it is the 60th annivesary of Imagineering and at the expo there is going to be an “open house” hosted by Imagineering more info here http://land.allears.net/blogs/dnews/2013/06/walt_disney_parks_and_resorts_5.html
I know it won’t help in our investigation, but I though it was interesting since we are learning more and more about the Imagineers on here
Learn more about the Optimist here: http://geekjlz.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-optimist-log.html
Wow, maybe these could have been interviews for the new inductees? That would mean the telegraph mentioning RDB in New Orleans Square was actually mentioning Ray Bradbury?
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